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The Greece [and European] Crisis thread everything EURO

#41 User is offline   Bernard L. Madoff 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 05:08 AM

View PostTinpusher, on 06 February 2010 - 06:42 AM, said:

German, Italian, French and Eurozone GDP out next Friday evening.

ECB published monthly report on Thursday.

German trade balance, current account and CPI on Tuesday.

Might see some EURO yo yo action next week!


Some interesting analyis on some of the above data...

http://www.zerohedge...s-crisis-part-1
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#42 User is offline   Bernard L. Madoff 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 05:14 AM

Latest from Iqualit...

Reuters:

Quote

IQALUIT, Canada, Feb 6 (Reuters) - Following are comments
by finance ministers and other officials after a meeting of the
Group of Seven industrialized nations, focused on the euro
zone's budget crisis, bank regulation, economic recovery and
the future of the G7 itself.

EURO ZONE DEBT CRISIS ECB PRESIDENT

JEAN-CLAUDE TRICHET
"Let me reiterate the position of the ECB: the governing
council approves of the medium-term goal that has been fixed by
the Greek government to get the public deficit to less than 3
percent of GDP in 2012." "We expect and we are confident that the Greek government
will take all the decisions that will permit it to reach that
goal that I reiterated."

FRENCH ECONOMY MINISTER CHRISTINE LAGARDE "The message clearly was that the European members of the
G7 have confirmed to the other partners in the G7 the substance
and significance of the plan put together by Greece and their
confidence that it will be managed. And that we, the European
members of the G7 will, in fact, make sure that it is
managed."

U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY TIMOTHY GEITHNER "European authorities gave us a very comprehensive review
of the program now in place to address the challenges faced by
the Greek economy. They made clear to us they will manage this
with great care."

GERMAN FINANCE MINISTER WOLFGANG SCHAEUBLE
"Our partners outside Europe have the firm impression that
the Europeans can solve this problem and can cope with it."

JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER, CHAIR OF THE EUROGROUP OF EURO ZONE FINANCE MINISTERS
"We, the representatives of the euro area, have made it
clear that the situation in Greece is serious, and that the
problem will be resolved."

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#43 User is offline   Bernard L. Madoff 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:24 AM

Christine Lagarde welcomes the Euro tanking (this comes after the Swiss Central Bank shorted its own currency of Friday)...

Quote

IQALUIT, Nunavut (Dow Jones)--French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde Saturday welcomed the strengthening of the U.S. dollar, suggesting that recent developments could ease tensions that have long-burdened European economies because of a strong euro. She also stressed the commitment of euro-zone members of the Group of Seven to closely monitor efforts by Greece to mend its public finances, as public debt worries have roiled markets in recent days.

"We always complained about the dollar not being strong enough ... That is clearly an improvement," Lagarde told reporters after a G-7 meeting that was held in Iqaluit, Northern Canada, on Friday and Saturday.

The dollar has recently risen against the euro, which last week took a beating on the back of continued worries over the state of Greece's public finances and other highly indebted European nations such as Spain and Portugal. As the financial crisis pushed the euro higher against the dollar last year, French officials have repeatedly bemoaned the weak dollar, saying a strong euro hurts European exports.

The French finance minister's remarks came as the G-7 said Saturday it was sticking to an earlier stance on currencies laid out at a previous meeting in Istanbul, Turkey, in October. The Istanbul statement said excessive currency volatility has an adverse impact on financial stability, and welcomed efforts by China to move to a more flexible exchange rate regime.

Lagarde said that the G-7 still has a role to play in monitoring foreign exchange fluctuations, despite concerns it is becoming irrelevant due to China not being a member and to the growing importance of the Group of 20 as the world's primary forum for economic discussions.

"I am not sure that the G-20 is currently the right forum to discuss currencies...which is one of the reasons why we think the G-7 is a good forum to keep, even in a renewed format," Lagarde said.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has vowed that ending the current "monetary disorder" will be one of the G-20's main tasks when France chairs the group next year.

The French finance minister repeated earlier assurances made at the G-7 meeting by European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet that the group's euro-zone members will keep a close eye on how Greece implements plans outlined to fix its finances.

"Euro-zone members of the G-7 have confirmed the substance and the significance of the plan put together by Greece and that they will make sure that the plan is managed," Lagarde said.

-By Nathalie Boschat, Dow Jones Newswires; nathalie.boschat@dowjones.com


Currency wars! The lowest wins! Posted Image

Quote

"I am not sure that the G-20 is currently the right forum to discuss currencies...which is one of the reasons why we think the G-7 is a good forum to keep, even in a renewed format," Lagarde said.

Wayne Swan will be dissapointed he is not at the nerve centre of world financial decision making.Posted Image
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#44 User is offline   boz 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 10:24 AM

View PostTinpusher, on 07 February 2010 - 05:08 AM, said:

Some interesting analyis on some of the above data...

http://www.zerohedge...s-crisis-part-1


Quite crappy analisis this one on zerohedge (I would sack the writer or send him to economy lessons).
Specially the last bit is wrong, you can't make statement on country external funding needs on government budget debt (what about Japan then?), you have to consider the total debt private + public as a whole and only after that look at the current account numbers. I am pretty sure those public budget increase are compensated by private savings and a drop in gdp that was 4% in EU last year. Also, when you look at europe account numbers you can't just consider the internal spending as the main player, in europe as a whole price of oil or gas is a great player and a drop in those prices would turn account figure around in most euro country.
Also about M3 I don't think is that bad in EU considering 4% gdp drop, no population increase, irrelevant quantitative easing, even in australia you have a sick m3 with population increasing and even with home prices/private loans still rising.
then you can't put eu country in group like south west, east etc. each country is very different to each other, for example, spain and greece are in a very different situation then italy or france, iceland and UK very different then ireland, etc.
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#45 User is offline   boz 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:33 AM

another good commentary from bloomberg on the PIGS chrisis:

Quote

‘PIGS’ Crisis Is Opportunity for Euro to Stand Up: Matthew Lynn Share Business ExchangeTwitterFacebook| Email | Print | A A A Commentary by Matthew Lynn

<br clear="all"> Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- “You never want a serious crisis to go to waste,” Rahm Emanuel, U.S. President Barack Obama’s chief of staff, said during the 2008 credit crunch. “It’s an opportunity to do things that you could not do before.”

Somebody should phone the White House, and ask if Emanuel could be flown to Frankfurt for a few weeks.

The euro area and the European Central Bank are now dealing with what markets are calling the “PIGS” crisis: Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Sometimes Italy is added to the list, but its finances seem to be in slightly better shape.

The bond markets have picked on Greece, punishing the country for running up a budget deficit equal to 12.7 percent of gross domestic product. Now the focus is on other indebted countries in the euro area. Equity and currency markets are jittery as central bankers seek a lasting solution.

It’s a crisis, no doubt. But the ECB should, perhaps, see it as an opportunity.

There has been confusion about fiscal responsibility since the euro was created a decade ago. This is the chance to set the record straight. Get this crisis right, and the euro could establish itself as the dominant world currency. Get it wrong, and by 2030 the only place you’ll be able to get euro notes will be as souvenirs on EBay Inc.

The nub of the PIGS problem is very simple: For years, they have been able to incur debts in a currency that was far stronger, and had much lower borrowing costs, than the old national ones the euro replaced. Now the bill is falling due. Either they implement tough austerity measures, subjecting their economies to savage recessions. Or else they can quit the euro and introduce a new currency. Either way, the outlook is grim.

There is, however a three-step program, that would manage the crisis and strengthen the euro in the long term.

Here’s what the ECB, with the backing of the euro-area governments, needs to do:

Step 1: Stand firm and refuse to offer a bailout.

The bond markets have been assuming that lending to the PIGS was much the same as lending to the U.S. or Japan. In the end, the central bank would always rescue them by printing more money. That was a big mistake.

Explain politely that nobody ever said that was how the euro would work. If you lend money to Greece or Portugal, you have to take a good look at that economy and reach a decision on whether the bond can be repaid, much as you would when deciding whether to buy a bond from Volkswagen AG or BP Plc. Corporations rarely get bailed out by central banks, and they can’t devalue their currencies either. Within the euro area, the bond market needs to start functioning much more like the corporate-debt market, with each borrower assessed on its own merits.

Step 2: Organize an orderly default.

It’s not going to be possible for the PIGS to meet their obligations. The debt burden is simply too great, well above the euro-area limit of 3 percent of GDP: Portugal’s 2009 budget deficit was 9.3 percent; Ireland’s was 11.7 percent; and Spain’s was 11.4 percent.

If governments slash spending too much, they will drag their economies down too far and too fast. Tax revenue will collapse, making it even harder to repay the debts. They will just get sucked into a vicious circle.

There is a lot of pain to go round, and there is no reason why the bondholders shouldn’t share some of it. Companies default on their bonds all the time. So do countries. The PIGS, under the guidance of the ECB, should simply declare a debt restructuring: They can announce a temporary suspension of interest payments, and offer bondholders 50 percent of their money back. It is precisely what would happen if a company was struggling to pay back its debts. There’s no reason a euro-area country shouldn’t do the same thing. So long as it is done in a controlled way, the situation is manageable.

Step 3: Create a mini-IMF.

In much of the world, the International Monetary Fund is called in when a country gets into a financial mess. It organizes a bailout, and effectively takes control of the nation’s economic policies while a rescue package is put in place. The ECB needs to do something similar. If Greece or Portugal defaults on its bonds, it will be hard to raise funds.

In that situation, the ECB should provide bridge loans to get countries through the crisis, in exchange for imposing emergency economic reforms. That will include cuts to state spending and taxes, and rolling back regulations so that economies can grow again. As the IMF has proved, it is often a lot easier for an outside body to impose tough changes than it is for locally elected politicians.

Countries can claw their way back from a fiscal meltdown. The Irish have made a great start, cutting public spending dramatically, while holding corporate taxes down. In effect, they are swapping short-term pain for long-term gain, which is always a lot better than doing it the other way around.

When the euro was introduced in 1999, it wasn’t clear whether member states would have to bail each other out and whether economic policies would be imposed from the center.

Those questions should now be answered decisively.

The euro can’t survive if members can accumulate huge debts and get other countries to pick up the bill. And, when necessary, there needs to be tough economic medicine imposed by the ECB. The PIGS crisis is a chance to address those two points. The common currency will emerge stronger as a result.

(Matthew Lynn is a Bloomberg News columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)

Click on “Send Comment” in the sidebar display to send a letter to the editor.

To contact the writer of this column: Matthew Lynn in London at matthewlynn@bloomberg.net

Last Updated: February 8, 2010 19:00 EST


My opinion is that is a bit too early to call a default on the PIGS debt, for example I think Ireland is going to make it (same for Italy that despite the GDP fall has got around 5.5% of GDP budget deficit).
The risk of calling the default is that money flow into the country stop (forcing budget to even up straight away) and very luckily you send bankrupt the local banks and many businesses (that also will default on debt), money to businesses will also freeze, I believe you would have to expect 10% GDP drop straight away for those country that default on debt.
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#46 User is offline   savagegoose 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:43 AM

i read portugal has 90% of its reserves in gold., not quite the same barrel as other PIGS countries.
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#47 User is offline   cobran20 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:39 PM

Germany backs Greek bail-out as EU creates 'economic government'

Quote

Germany is preparing to drop its vehement opposition to a rescue package for Greece, fearing that a rapid escalation of the debt crisis in Southern Europe could endanger German banks and damage the euro.

Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany's finance minister, has asked officials to prepare a plan in time for a summit of EU leaders on Thursday, according to reports in the German media. The options include either a loan from EU states or some sort of institutional EU response.

The news pushed the euro to $1.38 against the dollar, the strongest one-day rally since the single currency began its nose-dive late last year. Yields on Greek 10-year bonds plummeted 36 basis points to 6.39pc in a matter of hours as speculators scrambled to exit overstretched positions, with synchronised moves for Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian bonds.

Michael Meister, parliamentary chief for Germany's Christian Democrats, said the crisis could not be allowed to drag on. "Our top priority is the stability of the euro," he told FT Deutschland. "Should Greece receive help, it will only be under tough conditions and if the Greek government undertakes root-and-branch reforms."

Germany's apparent backing for a bail-out comes despite worries that it will lead to the breakdown of fiscal discipline across the Club Med region. It also raises troubling questions of fairness. Ireland has tackled its own crisis by slashing wages and going far beyond any measure so far offered by Greece, yet Dublin has not received help.

Germany's dramatic shift in policy changes the character of the euro project. It follows weeks of soul-searching in Berlin, and after increasingly loud pleas from Brussels, Paris and southern capitals. The deciding factor was concern that letting Greece fail risked a "Lehman-style" run on Club Med debt, with systemic spill-over across Europe.

German exposure to the region amounts to €43bn in Greece, €47bn in Portugal, €193bn in Ireland, and €240bn in Spain, according to the Bank for International Settlements. German lenders are already vulnerable, with the world's lowest risk-adjusted capital ratios bar Japan.

The breakthrough comes as this week's summit of EU leaders in Brussels rapidly evolves from a policy workshop into an historic gathering that may catapult the EU across the Rubicon towards fiscal federalism and a de facto debt union. The EU's top brass are seizing on the crisis to push for a radical extension of EU powers, saying Greece has exposed the deep flaws in the structure of monetary union.

Herman Van Rompuy, the EU's new president, has submitted a text calling for the creation of an "economic government" that shifts responsibility for economic planning from national authorities to the "EU level".

In a parallel move, Commission chief Jose Barroso said Brussels has treaty powers allowing it to take the reins of economic management. "

This is a time for boldness. I believe that our economic and social situation demands a radical shift from the status quo. And the new Lisbon Treaty allows this," he said.

"Economic policy isn't a national, but a European matter. No modern economy is an island. When a member state doesn't make reforms, others suffer because of that."

Rumours swept the markets all day on news that Jean-Claude Trichet, the head of the European Central Bank, had cut short a trip to Australia to attend the summit.

It is unclear how long Tuesday's reprieve will last, or whether any bail-out involving loans – as opposed to subsidy – can solve the deeper crisis of Club Med competitiveness. Wealthy Greek citizens have shifted €7bn from banks in Greece to foreign accounts, fearing that capital controls in Athens. The withdrawals have echoes of the Mexico's Tequila Crisis in 1994 when Mexicans set off a spiral by shifting funds to the US.

The risk is that capital flight will erode the deposit base of Greek banks, forcing them to shrink loan books. Greek banks do not rely on the fickle funding of wholesale markets – the undoing of Northern Rock – but this does not shield them from a deposit run.

Goldman Sachs has downgraded the National Bank of Greece and GPSB. "Greece faces both a liquidity and, potentially, a solvency problem. While we believe that, individually, Greek banks tend to be well-run, the problems they face are outside their operational control," it said.


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#48 User is offline   boz 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:42 PM

Is goldman Sachs at the bottom of Greece debt as well...:nono:
How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt

Quote

Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

Greeks aren't very welcome in the Rue Alphones Weicker in Luxembourg. It's home to Eurostat, the European Union's statistical office. The number crunchers there are deeply annoyed with Athens. Investigative reports state that important data "cannot be confirmed" or has been requested but "not received."



Creative accounting took priority when it came to totting up government debt.Since 1999, the Maastricht rules threaten to slap hefty fines on euro member countries that exceed the budget deficit limit of three percent of gross domestic product. Total government debt mustn't exceed 60 percent. The Greeks have never managed to stick to the 60 percent debt limit, and they only adhered to the three percent deficit ceiling with the help of blatant balance sheet cosmetics. One time, gigantic military expenditures were left out, and another time billions in hospital debt. After recalculating the figures, the experts at Eurostat consistently came up with the same results: In truth, the deficit each year has been far greater than the three percent limit. In 2009, it exploded to over 12 percent.

Now, though, it looks like the Greek figure jugglers have been even more brazen than was previously thought. "Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.

Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.

Fictional Exchange Rates

Such transactions are part of normal government refinancing. Europe's governments obtain funds from investors around the world by issuing bonds in yen, dollar or Swiss francs. But they need euros to pay their daily bills. Years later the bonds are repaid in the original foreign denominations.

But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.

This credit disguised as a swap didn't show up in the Greek debt statistics. Eurostat's reporting rules don't comprehensively record transactions involving financial derivatives. "The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps," says a German derivatives dealer.

In previous years, Italy used a similar trick to mask its true debt with the help of a different US bank. In 2002 the Greek deficit amounted to 1.2 percent of GDP. After Eurostat reviewed the data in September 2004, the ratio had to be revised up to 3.7 percent. According to today's records, it stands at 5.2 percent.

At some point Greece will have to pay up for its swap transactions, and that will impact its deficit. The bond maturities range between 10 and 15 years. Goldman Sachs charged a hefty commission for the deal and sold the swaps on to a Greek bank in 2005.

The bank declined to comment on the controversial deal. The Greek Finance Ministry did not respond to a written request for comment.



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#49 User is offline   itching 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:56 AM

Well they have their solution

increase retirement age
tax the church and
make street vendors give receipts (they sell chewing gum, newspapers and porn)

http://news.smh.com....00210-nq6i.html

This post has been edited by itching: 10 February 2010 - 01:07 AM

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#50 User is offline   Silver Surfer 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:36 AM

Greek crisis intensifies as Joe Stiglitz calls for Europe to 'teach the speculators a lesson'

Pressure on the Greek government to put its books in order or face a bail-out intensified as investors continued to flee its debt, pushing the country further towards a possible debt spiral.
By Edmund Conway, Economics Editor
Published: 9:05PM GMT 08 Feb 2010




Yields on Greek debt rose by 14 basis points, as investors digested the fact that G7 and eurozone finance ministers refused at their weekend summit to provide more detail on a rescue package for the troubled economy.

Alongside Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland, Greece has been the focus of widespread market selling over the past few weeks, with investors fearing the countries may be unable to repair their balance sheets alone. The interest rate on Greek 10-year benchmark debt is now 6.75pc, compared with fellow euro member Germany’s rate of 3.14pc.


Suspicions that the Greek crisis could give way to a full-blown attack on the euro have been reinforced as it emerged that currency speculators have increased their bets against the currency to the highest level since its creation.

Contracts on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME), a closely-watched speculation barometer, showed that in the past week net short positions against the euro rose from 39,500 contracts to 43,700 – worth €5.5bn ($7.5bn). Greek prime minister George Papandreou has characterised the behaviour of capital markets, which have put a rising premium on interest rates to his government, as part of a broader speculative attack on the currency.

The CME figures will spark fears that, much like George Soros in the early 1990s, hedge funds will lay siege to the single currency. Since Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy, all of whom are facing similar issues, cannot devalue or inflate their way out of the crisis, economists suspect that they will have to receive assistance from other euro nations to avoid inflicting cuts of unprecedented ferocity on their economies.

Economist Joe Stiglitz, who is advising the Greek government, last night denied that the country would require a bail-out, and urged national authorities to intervene in markets to "teach the speculators a lesson". Likening the situation to the Asian financial crisis, in which even healthy economies were targeted as hedge funds and investors withdrew from the region, he told the Sky's Jeff Randall Live show: "The speculators will always look for the weakest link. What they're doing now is a version of the Hong Kong double play in 1997 /1998.

"What Hong Kong did in response was to raise interest rates and intervene in the stock market. They burnt the speculators and Europe needs to do the same thing."


http://www.telegraph...s-a-lesson.html
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#51 User is offline   recession we had to have 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 10:12 AM

Linket

Greek public workers go on strike

JOHN HADOULIS
February 10, 2010 - 8:29PM AFP

Thousands of Greek civil servants have gone on strike against wage cuts, paralysing flights and disrupting rail traffic as Athens grapples to fight a debt crisis that has shaken Europe.

The day-long strike on Wednesday came amid reports Germany is considering how to help Athens and contain any spillover to the other 15 countries that share the euro.

The action - set to cripple the work of ministries, local administrations, educational institutions and tax offices - will be another test of the resolve of Greece's Socialist government.

Flights across Greece were suspended on Wednesday as air traffic controllers joined the protest. The two main Greek carriers, Olympic Air and Aegean, cancelled flights for the day.

The main union of public workers, which alone counts some 300,000 members, will stage protests in Athens and the second city of Salonika against the "unjust and meaningless sacrifices".

The state-run railways cut services following a nine-hour walkout announcement by unions but international train traffic will not be affected.

Since the government revealed late last year that the country's finances were in much worse shape than had been thought, the markets have punished Greece as they fear unions will beat back any cost-cutting plans.

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou on Monday asked civil servants to accept bonus cuts saying they "must be the first to set an example."

The Greek crisis has driven up borrowing costs for governments across Europe, with pressure mounting on a number of other heavily-indebted eurozone members, and sent the euro sliding against the dollar.

The European Commission voiced concern on Tuesday that Greece's fiscal crisis could affect other parts of the 16-nation eurozone.

There is a "serious risk of spillover into other parts of the euro area," EU Economic Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia told the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

But Alumnia ruled out the need for help from the International Monetary Fund and urged European leaders to offer "clear support" for Greece in return for real efforts from Athens to resolve its budget crisis.

A report in the Financial Times Deutschland on Wednesday suggested that Germany was preparing an aid plan for Greece, following weeks of speculation that eurozone nations may need to help Athens to avoid a humiliating turn to the IMF that would shatter confidence in the euro.

The newspaper said German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble was working on both a bilateral basis and at the European level on putting together a package to help Athens.

© 2010 AFP
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#52 User is offline   Bernard L. Madoff 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:27 AM

Quote

the Eurozone will need to finance, roll and fund deficits to the tune of €1.6 trillion in 2010 alone. Keep in mind that the U.S. faces a very similar situation, as it has to fund roughly $1.7 trillion in net issuance in this calendar year, and prior analyses indicate that there will likely be a $700 billion shortfall absent a dramatic upswing in rates.

http://www.zerohedge...n-funding-crisi (more in the link)

Posted Image
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#53 User is offline   Solomon 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:56 AM

View PostTinpusher, on 10 February 2010 - 11:27 AM, said:


That's pretty big bickies to find in 12 months.
Can't we just print some more pretty paper???
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#54 User is offline   savagegoose 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:12 PM

if i was euro chief id let em hang. they want to break the rules and go playing with crooks like GS, then burn. like someone said greece is 3% of euro economy, drop em like a sack of potatoes and let em rot.
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#55 User is offline   Solomon 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:19 PM

I don't think the true catalyst for the final leg down, is going to be something the world is watching.
If everyone is aware of a problem it is not a problem.
I'm still an advocate for the "black swan" theory.
It will be something from completely out of left field, that no governments or markets were expecting that will rip the carpet out from under the feet of the decision makers.
Such a situation cannot be as easily or readily rectified, and can cause panic.

An earthquake, or a volcanic eruption, or even a tsunamai that is expected, can be dealt with even though there is injury and loss. But something unexpected is a different matter.
Similar to workers turning up one day to discover the factory closed, with no warning and no indication of any trouble looming.
I have no doubts that the sovereign debt issue is causing some anxiety, but I still think, it will be something under the radar, that will do the damage, and tip the tenuous over the edge.

I have no idea what that might be, but rest assured its origins are already underway.
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#56 User is offline   Bernard L. Madoff 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:44 PM

http://www.telegraph...government.html

Quote


Germany backs Greek bail-out as EU creates 'economic government'


Germany is preparing to drop its vehement opposition to a rescue package for Greece, fearing that a rapid escalation of the debt crisis in Southern Europe could endanger German banks and damage the euro.
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, International Business Editor
Published: 8:36PM GMT 09 Feb 2010


Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany's finance minister, has asked officials to prepare a plan in time for a summit of EU leaders on Thursday, according to reports in the German media. The options include either a loan from EU states or some sort of institutional EU response. The news pushed the euro to $1.38 against the dollar, the strongest one-day rally since the single currency began its nose-dive late last year. Yields on Greek 10-year bonds plummeted 36 basis points to 6.39pc in a matter of hours as speculators scrambled to exit overstretched positions, with synchronised moves for Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian bonds.


Michael Meister, parliamentary chief for Germany's Christian Democrats, said the crisis could not be allowed to drag on. "Our top priority is the stability of the euro," he told FT Deutschland. "Should Greece receive help, it will only be under tough conditions and if the Greek government undertakes root-and-branch reforms."

Germany's apparent backing for a bail-out comes despite worries that it will lead to the breakdown of fiscal discipline across the Club Med region. It also raises troubling questions of fairness. Ireland has tackled its own crisis by slashing wages and going far beyond any measure so far offered by Greece, yet Dublin has not received help.

Germany's dramatic shift in policy changes the character of the euro project. It follows weeks of soul-searching in Berlin, and after increasingly loud pleas from Brussels, Paris and southern capitals. The deciding factor was concern that letting Greece fail risked a "Lehman-style" run on Club Med debt, with systemic spill-over across Europe.

German exposure to the region amounts to €43bn in Greece, €47bn in Portugal, €193bn in Ireland, and €240bn in Spain, according to the Bank for International Settlements. German lenders are already vulnerable, with the world's lowest risk-adjusted capital ratios bar Japan.

The breakthrough comes as this week's summit of EU leaders in Brussels rapidly evolves from a policy workshop into an historic gathering that may catapult the EU across the Rubicon towards fiscal federalism and a de facto debt union. The EU's top brass are seizing on the crisis to push for a radical extension of EU powers, saying Greece has exposed the deep flaws in the structure of monetary union.

Herman Van Rompuy, the EU's new president, has submitted a text calling for the creation of an "economic government" that shifts responsibility for economic planning from national authorities to the "EU level".

In a parallel move, Commission chief Jose Barroso said Brussels has treaty powers allowing it to take the reins of economic management. "

This is a time for boldness. I believe that our economic and social situation demands a radical shift from the status quo. And the new Lisbon Treaty allows this," he said.

"Economic policy isn't a national, but a European matter. No modern economy is an island. When a member state doesn't make reforms, others suffer because of that."

Rumours swept the markets all day on news that Jean-Claude Trichet, the head of the European Central Bank, had cut short a trip to Australia to attend the summit.

It is unclear how long Tuesday's reprieve will last, or whether any bail-out involving loans – as opposed to subsidy – can solve the deeper crisis of Club Med competitiveness. Wealthy Greek citizens have shifted €7bn from banks in Greece to foreign accounts, fearing that capital controls in Athens. The withdrawals have echoes of the Mexico's Tequila Crisis in 1994 when Mexicans set off a spiral by shifting funds to the US.

The risk is that capital flight will erode the deposit base of Greek banks, forcing them to shrink loan books. Greek banks do not rely on the fickle funding of wholesale markets – the undoing of Northern Rock – but this does not shield them from a deposit run.

Goldman Sachs has downgraded the National Bank of Greece and GPSB. "Greece faces both a liquidity and, potentially, a solvency problem. While we believe that, individually, Greek banks tend to be well-run, the problems they face are outside their operational control," it said.


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#57 User is offline   Bernard L. Madoff 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 01:04 PM

View PostSolomon, on 10 February 2010 - 12:19 PM, said:

I don't think the true catalyst for the final leg down, is going to be something the world is watching.

Yes. These are rumblings or warnings that the worst is ahead but not IT.

The most significant event IMO in the 20th century was unforeseen and enacted by a Serbian nobody in 1914*

The outcomes were far reaching from the destruction of Germany and the resultant 3rd Reich; The decimation of millions of Russians under Nicholas II allowing Lenin to seize power faicilitating the Cold War and Comintern activities in Africa, Asia etc; The loss of empire wealth by Britain with independance to Palestine/Israel, South Africa, India (and its sub division into Pakistan and Bangladesh), Egypt and Mesapotamia (Iraq); Loss of French Indo-China; The rise of the USA from isolation following WW2 etc etc etc.

* http://en.wikipedia....Gavrilo_Princip

My gut says it will involve China in some way.
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#58 User is offline   boz 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 09:30 PM

View PostTinpusher, on 10 February 2010 - 11:27 AM, said:



I don't think he is making a good analyisis and after all he is the same guy that made a crappy analysis few days ago, first of all those bonds that are to be renewed are already part of the system, where would they go if not back into the system? probably EU wish they'll not going to go back into bond and be spent boosting gdp, taxes, employment etc. In any case I'll doubt those money will head out of europe, more likely those US, Australia or other nation bonds due to expire will head back to the owner in Europe, foreign debt is kind of no existent in EU. About the fiscal deficit, if the 529 bil euro is correct (and I doubt it is an update number) is considering the interest payment on the debt and is around 15 times bigger then the fiscal deficit this year for australia, How much bigger is EU population and GDP comparing to Australia?
boz
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#59 User is offline   RumpledElf 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 10:43 PM

Was flicking channels last night and the 7pm project had the barefoot investor on it, talking about this and the housing bubble. Its almost mainstream news!
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#60 User is offline   savagegoose 

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:56 PM

read an article about how ECB sees this as an opportunity to get more cuntrol over local economies. lay down the law and runn the whole of europe from brussels. well guess with a deal like that i would bail out greece et al. so take backmy erlier post about letting em hang, its all about central control.

i wonder if it will all end up like roman times with citizens begging the barbarians to invade them and free them from too many taxes?
i think we crossed over when all west countries brought in patriot act type laws and decided spying on their own was a good idea.
even if anyone over threw the new powers in the world, they would unlikely want to disassemble the surveillance.

but i digress big time.

basically cost for being bailed out will be loss of control over own econ and becoming vassal state of brussels.
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