[Bernard L. Madoff]

tom, on 12 March 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

Maybe they were not so well prepared after all.



http://au.news.yahoo...-loses-coolant/

One would have thought for the costs mobile diesel generators ready to go would always be on site?

It is going to be a nervous 24 hours for the personnel trying to get this thing under control. They are going to have the toughest job in the world tonight.

Read my previous post. THIRTEEN Gens didn't start (13!!).

Mobile diesel? The emerg gen at my pissant ATC unit is the size of that in a Locomotive so picure 13 of them.

[sydney3000]

I have worked for Japanese companies since 2005 and with a Japanese head office at my current employer since 2008. I would never trust anything they do unless I double-checked the facts myself. They are nice people and intelligent but their culture and hierarchical setup usually turns on them. If you found a flaw in some system, which I have, they would listen, nod but maybe fail to comprehend. If they understood they would be slow to act to overcome the flaw. It would require to travel up the command, rely on the highest position to be intelligent enough to select the correct solution and then travel back down the command for implementation. This explains the stagnating Japanese society of the last 20 years. Nothing ever changes and nobody is confident enough to act without sign-off and concensus even if the action required is obvious.

I am shocked but not surprised that 13 generators failed to provide the security needed. I believe they underestimated the risks and didn't have enough failsafes as in Plan C, Plan D, Plan E, Plan F, .... I read once that airplanes have 4 or 5 backup systems. You would figure a nuclear power reactor has something like a chain of 10 backup systems.

My conspiracy theory now is that Japan was put on negative outlook by Moody's. Japan knew their financial state was bankruptcy and it was going to use the first possible option to "resolve" their economic troubles. I don't see how an earthquake and tsunami could cause a nuclear distaster if they didn't actually mismanage the situation. Would a meltdown cause a convenient reset of their demographic setup and financial system?

[Solomon]

sydney3000, on 12 March 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:

My conspiracy theory now is that Japan was put on negative outlook by Moody's. Japan knew their financial state was bankruptcy and it was going to use the first possible option to "resolve" their economic troubles. I don't see how an earthquake and tsunami could cause a nuclear distaster if they didn't actually mismanage the situation. Would a meltdown cause a convenient reset of their demographic setup and financial system?

S3K,
I hope that's a lame attempt at a joke!!

[sydney3000]

Solomon, on 13 March 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:

I hope that's a lame attempt at a joke!!

Isn't that the definition of "conspiracy theory"?

[Bernard L. Madoff]

I have been following Malcolm Grimston on the BBC the last few days. A smart cookie:

Q&A: Explosion at Fukushima nuclear plant

[wim]

sydney3000, on 12 March 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:

I have worked for Japanese companies since 2005 and with a Japanese head office at my current employer since 2008. I would never trust anything they do unless I double-checked the facts myself. They are nice people and intelligent but their culture and hierarchical setup usually turns on them. If you found a flaw in some system, which I have, they would listen, nod but maybe fail to comprehend. If they understood they would be slow to act to overcome the flaw. It would require to travel up the command, rely on the highest position to be intelligent enough to select the correct solution and then travel back down the command for implementation. This explains the stagnating Japanese society of the last 20 years. Nothing ever changes and nobody is confident enough to act without sign-off and concensus even if the action required is obvious.

I am shocked but not surprised that 13 generators failed to provide the security needed. I believe they underestimated the risks and didn't have enough failsafes as in Plan C, Plan D, Plan E, Plan F, .... I read once that airplanes have 4 or 5 backup systems. You would figure a nuclear power reactor has something like a chain of 10 backup systems.

My conspiracy theory now is that Japan was put on negative outlook by Moody's. Japan knew their financial state was bankruptcy and it was going to use the first possible option to "resolve" their economic troubles. I don't see how an earthquake and tsunami could cause a nuclear distaster if they didn't actually mismanage the situation. Would a meltdown cause a convenient reset of their demographic setup and financial system?

I only worked there for a year but was surprised in some cases. I saw people skip levels and others held back in ways I hadn't seen the company act in other countries.

While the project was ridiculously slow it was because they were very thorough. The on-timeness of the train system was remarkable and the inventiveness was impressive.

We had a minor earthquake on the day of go-live and there was a plan in place for it.

[urchin]

sydney3000, on 12 March 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:

I have worked for Japanese companies since 2005 and with a Japanese head office at my current employer since 2008. I would never trust anything they do unless I double-checked the facts myself. They are nice people and intelligent but their culture and hierarchical setup usually turns on them. If you found a flaw in some system, which I have, they would listen, nod but maybe fail to comprehend. If they understood they would be slow to act to overcome the flaw. It would require to travel up the command, rely on the highest position to be intelligent enough to select the correct solution and then travel back down the command for implementation. This explains the stagnating Japanese society of the last 20 years. Nothing ever changes and nobody is confident enough to act without sign-off and concensus even if the action required is obvious.

to an extent. but if you know how to work the system you can get things done relatively fast. getting to know the system takes some time though. simply saying "this is wrong and we will fix it" in a meeting will usually result in some nodded heads (as you point out) and a promise to "look into it." it took me a while to realise that "we'll look into it" means "no, go f-yourself" and to realise that you don't propose anything in meetings that you haven't already canvassed and gained approval for in advance.


the seniority based system means that, especially in 2nd or 3rd tier organisations, the feces might rise to the top (whereas the really capable people would get out and relocate to a better organisation).

the way the japanese news has been covering this, and the statements made by experts has been that the nuke plants are made to very stringent specs to withstand strong earthquakes and tsunamis. the problem is that this one far exceeded the limitations to which the plants were built. to be sure, a 9.0 is freaking huge and that tsunami swept away breakwater walls as though they were made of balsa wood.

in any event, they could have, should have evacuated the people living in the area as soon as they knew anything might wrong. instead they dilly dallied. as a result some 100+ people were unnecessarily exposed to harmful levels of radiation.

[Bernard L. Madoff]

Bernard L. Madoff, on 11 March 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

I still fear 5,000++

15,000+ I fear.

[ummester]

Ok - I'm a bit confused here. By this thread and the news.

Is it bad or not?

[Bernard L. Madoff]

ummester, on 13 March 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

Ok - I'm a bit confused here. By this thread and the news.

Is it bad or not?

If they can keep the core cool its OK, if not its Chernobyl in some form. The problem is the lack of info and the mixed info from Govt agencies.

[ummester]

Bernard L. Madoff, on 13 March 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

If they can keep the core cool its OK, if not its Chernobyl in some form. The problem is the lack of info and the mixed info from Govt agencies.

Thanks for the simplification. My understanding of nuclear machinary is obviously limited.

[Bernard L. Madoff]

This article explains why a Chernobyl is unlikely

Fukushima Fallout: Next Few Days Critical

Quote

The explosion at the plant occurred 24 hours after it shut down - unlike Chernobyl, which was active when the leak occurred.

Nuclear expert Malcolm Grimston explained that the actual nuclear core had not become uncovered at Fukushima, diverting a potentially disastrous meltdown.

[ummester]

So basically, if they keep it cool it's all good - provided the truth is out there. And, either way, the facility is a write off.

[Bernard L. Madoff]

Before and after

http://www.abc.net.a...beforeafter.htm

[Bernard L. Madoff]

This is sad. Some of these folk have not deleted or changed their username:

Attached File(s)

•  Facebook - Americans on the Tsunami..jpg (422.73K)
  Number of downloads: 19

[Mr Medved]

France urges citizens to leave Japan's Tokyo region
http://www.reuters.c...E72C08A20110313

(Reuters) - France recommended its citizens leave the Tokyo region of Japan on Sunday, citing the risk of further earthquakes and uncertainty about the situation at its damaged nuclear plants.

"It seems reasonable to advise those who do not have a particular reason to stay in the Tokyo region to leave the Kanto (Tokyo) region for a few days," a statement on the French embassy website in Japan said.

"We strongly advise our nationals not to travel to Japan and we strongly recommend delaying any voyage planned," it added. (Reporting by James Regan and Jean-Baptiste Vey)

[Mr Medved]

Japan nuke plant blast may be worse than Chernobyl: Indian experts
http://news.xinhuane.../c_13776240.htm

NEW DELHI, March 13 (Xinhua) -- Some Indian experts have warned that the explosion at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear complex may be worst than Chernobyl even as the quake-hit nation seeks to reassure its people that the country would not experience a full- blown nuclear disaster.

At least 15 people have been reportedly admitted to hospital with symptoms of radiation poisoning after a blast ripped through a reactor at the Fukushima nuclear power plant yesterday. The emergency cooling system is said to have been failed at another reactor at the Fukushima plant.

The authorities, who have ordered the evacuation of 170,000 people from the area within a radius of 20 km at Fukushima, 250 km northeast of capital Tokyo, however, said there are no health concerns though fluctuations in the radiation level can be expected.

But some Indian experts are not convinced.

"There are a total of 10 reactors at the two plants at Fukushima nuclear complex. Yesterday, there was an explosion at the No. 1 nuclear plant in the wake of 8.9 magnitude quake and tsunami in the region, which destroyed a reactor and reports suggest that another reactor may also explode," said Delhi-based nuke security expert V.K. Duggal.

"The Japanese government hasn't yet provided accurate information regarding threat posed by explosions. This is very worrying. The disaster may turn out to be more dangerous than Chernobyl -- both from the standpoint of population's exposure to radioactive material and radioactive contamination in the area," said Duggal.

Another expert Professor Subodh Gupta agreed. "We aren't at all aware of the status of the fuel in the core of the reactor that exploded yesterday at the nuclear complex. We don't know whether the core is uncovered, if the fuel is breaking up or melting. This is dangerous," he said.

Japan's nuclear safety agency has rated the incident at four on the international scale of zero to seven. The country's US envoy Ichiro Fujisaki told CNN "there was a partial melt of a fuel rod... but it's nothing like a whole reactor melting."

"But the explosion must have caused radioactive materials and gases to emit into the air. The most vulnerable elements discharged were iodine and cesium, two by-products of the nuclear fission process. These volatile compounds can well spread into the atmosphere and cause a massive disaster," said Professor Divya Mishra of Mumbai University.

Health officials in Japan said they will distribute iodine tablets as a precaution as iodine protects against radiation- induced cancer.

"The disaster could be on the scale of Chernobyl where the reactor core melted and radioactive fallout were discharged into the air, harming civilians living at a relatively great distance from the reactor. It's high time that Japan comes out with a correct assessment of the situation," said Professor Gupta.

[tom]

Bernard L. Madoff, on 14 March 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

This is sad.

It is indeed. I would not say it is isolated amoung yanks though. The worst part is it is likely there would be Australians who take a similar view.

[urchin]

Bernard L. Madoff, on 14 March 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

This is sad. Some of these folk have not deleted or changed their username:

there's no shortage of ignorant, bigoted people in the world, to be sure. but they are a very small minority compared to all the people who have been expressing their support (moral and financial) to Japan in the past few days. anyone who can look at the events of recent days with any degree of satisfaction or smugness, well, one can only pity them for their thorough lack of understanding of what it means to be a human being...

what's more i'd bet that half of them would be hard pressed to tell you what state pearl harbor is in...

[Bernard L. Madoff]

As an exMilitary Officer I find the Japanese behaviour in WW2 abhorrent. When in Thailand I went to Kachanburi to the River Kwai and visited the vast graves* from the death railway. Riding that train I thought "holy sh*t" it would have been carnage to build this, remarkable engineering. At one mass immaculately kept graveyard a bus of Japanese teens pulled up and climbed all over the massive cross of memorial in the middle, as a serving officer I cussed and thought, they know no better, just kids.

When I got commissioned, my reviewing officer was a frail Sir Edward "Weary" Dunlop (click on linky, quite a dude), a doctor, and LTCOL who won fame at Changi. He forgave straight away.

The Japanese treated prisoners abominably, beheading pilots and officers (good grief! the Germans bring us to dinner with Schnapps). Warrior culture.

But here is a rub on that America revenge thing. Canada invaded, took Detroit and burned the Whitehouse in 1812 (the Star Spangled Banner is born from watching Canadian rockets on DC); British war of independance 18th century; Germans mid 20th. They have grudges?
How far back do they run?

2,459 died at Pearl Harbor, 150,000 to 240,000 died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I reckon the revenge monster got fed.

*