[AndersB]

Sorry to hear how the economic downturn are affecting forum members here too. I hope it all turns out good for you, SC & Ruffian!

[staringclown]

AndersB, on 02 February 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Sorry to hear how the economic downturn are affecting forum members here too. I hope it all turns out good for you, SC & Ruffian!

Thank you Anders. I think I'll be OK. My cunning outweighs my skill but luckily my skill is adequate.

At an interdepartmental boozing session this afternoon it was revealed that the 'tighten your belts' speech may have been synchronised. An upswing in enquiries into APS permanence is definitely occurring. If every department in Canberra suddenly declared that IT contractors were no longer being hired then the jump to in house development would be huge. The savings from that alone would achieve the IT budget efficiency bonus.

[mattau]

hey 10 weeks is quite long!
i read alot of personal finance books and many of them recommend saving at least 3 to 6 months worth of your living expenses so that you can survive in the event of a job loss.

10 weeks just makes it over the 3 month mark.
I've actually saved about 6 months of living expenses in a Emergency Fund - but apart from that, I'm self employed now so no real worry of getting "fired"

[staringclown]

mattau, on 03 February 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

10 weeks just makes it over the 3 month mark.

10 weeks is two and a half months no?

[wim]

staringclown, on 03 February 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

10 weeks is two and a half months no?

Depending on timezone and what the speed of light really is. Imagine if Samoa was travelling at the speed of light whilst Perth still refused to accept daylight savings. Further imagine that Samoa and New Zealand were twins where NZ stayed in it's original birthplace and Samoa travelled east at 40km/hour. If Samoa was really as slow as a wet week - given the monsoon season and NZ acted like nothing ever happened, NZ didn't really need to act because that's what actually happened.

From binary 10 = 2 and then round up to the nearest half.

[Mr Medved]

The eventuality that I saw on the horizon a few months out looks like happening. A family member is currently unemployed with mortgage commitments and a couple of the family members (myself included) will be covering the repayments in the interim. I guess this is an anecdotal example of when you get hit indirectly by job loss.

[Solomon]

Mr Medved, on 04 February 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

The eventuality that I saw on the horizon a few months out looks like happening. A family member is currently unemployed with mortgage commitments and a couple of the family members (myself included) will be covering the repayments in the interim. I guess this is an anecdotal example of when you get hit indirectly by job loss.

I commend your family on their charity Med.
But can I ask, how long have the family agreed to meet the committment?
Is there no other alternative?
I imagine even if they sold, that they would lose or something similar, hence the need to retain the home.

My only other comment, would be, how many other families would be capable or willing to do what you are?
Also if this gets really bad, you can't help out every member.

This post has been edited by Solomon: 04 February 2012 - 11:36 AM

[sydney3000]

Mr Medved, on 04 February 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

The eventuality that I saw on the horizon a few months out looks like happening. A family member is currently unemployed with mortgage commitments and a couple of the family members (myself included) will be covering the repayments in the interim. I guess this is an anecdotal example of when you get hit indirectly by job loss.

I think you need to put this interim scenario into a language people understand. You are Germany, your family member is Greece and the financial institution strengthening the family bond is Commerzbank.

This post has been edited by sydney3000: 04 February 2012 - 01:03 PM

[tor]

sydney3000, on 04 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

I think you need to put this interim scenario into a language people understand. You are Germany, your family member is Greece and the financial institution strengthening the family bond is Commerzbank.

hehehe which people exactly are going to understand that?

[cobran20]

sydney3000, on 04 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

I think you need to put this interim scenario into a language people understand. You are Germany, your family member is Greece and the financial institution strengthening the family bond is Commerzbank.

When you have a lazy family member who lies about his/her financial position so that it can borrow over its head, I'd say it should be taught a lesson in life, so that the same event does not happen again. It's not good to encourage bad habits!

[Mr Medved]

Solomon, on 04 February 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

I commend your family on their charity Med.
But can I ask, how long have the family agreed to meet the committment?
Is there no other alternative?
I imagine even if they sold, that they would lose or something similar, hence the need to retain the home.

My only other comment, would be, how many other families would be capable or willing to do what you are?
Also if this gets really bad, you can't help out every member.

I don't need to assist immediately but will if no work is secured in the next couple of months. Fortunately the repayments are not too large compared to the average mortgage - it's less than rent for the average house in the street that I live in. Selling is not desirable given capital improvements made to the property, and given expenses of selling I don't see any capital gains (possibly capital loss). I'd be happy to assist for six months before having a chat. It's not like the family member is a deadbeat alcoholic uncle or naive unskilled younger sibling that has been ruddprimed, it's just when job loss hits and you have a mortgage then you're caught in a tough spot. The Germany/Greece analogy is not applicable.

The stupid/fortunate thing is Centrelink will pay a mortgagor benefits whereas if you have savings sitting in the bank you have to exhaust your savings before receiving benefits. Another reason to own PMs.

I don't know what other families would do, but blood runs thicker than water and I wouldn't abandon responsible family members just because they're out of work. As is said, "do unto others...".

[zaph]

Mr Medved, on 04 February 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I don't need to assist immediately but will if no work is secured in the next couple of months. Fortunately the repayments are not too large compared to the average mortgage - it's less than rent for the average house in the street that I live in. Selling is not desirable given capital improvements made to the property, and given expenses of selling I don't see any capital gains (possibly capital loss). I'd be happy to assist for six months before having a chat. It's not like the family member is a deadbeat alcoholic uncle or naive unskilled younger sibling that has been ruddprimed, it's just when job loss hits and you have a mortgage then you're caught in a tough spot. The Germany/Greece analogy is not applicable.

The stupid/fortunate thing is Centrelink will pay a mortgagor benefits whereas if you have savings sitting in the bank you have to exhaust your savings before receiving benefits. Another reason to own PMs.

I don't know what other families would do, but blood runs thicker than water and I wouldn't abandon responsible family members just because they're out of work. As is said, "do unto others...".

i would provide the kind of assistance in the circumstances you are describing, and i would expect my family would do the same for me.

i looked up centrelink. you can have up to 3k (6k couple) of liquid assets and still receive the dole. it does seem a bit low.

in the process i discovered they believe a house is worth 135k. 135k is the difference for home owner / non home owner in allowable assets for things like the pension before payments decrease.

[sydney3000]

Mr Medved, on 04 February 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I don't need to assist immediately but will if no work is secured in the next couple of months. Fortunately the repayments are not too large compared to the average mortgage - it's less than rent for the average house in the street that I live in. Selling is not desirable given capital improvements made to the property, and given expenses of selling I don't see any capital gains (possibly capital loss). I'd be happy to assist for six months before having a chat. It's not like the family member is a deadbeat alcoholic uncle or naive unskilled younger sibling that has been ruddprimed, it's just when job loss hits and you have a mortgage then you're caught in a tough spot. The Germany/Greece analogy is not applicable.

The stupid/fortunate thing is Centrelink will pay a mortgagor benefits whereas if you have savings sitting in the bank you have to exhaust your savings before receiving benefits. Another reason to own PMs.

I don't know what other families would do, but blood runs thicker than water and I wouldn't abandon responsible family members just because they're out of work. As is said, "do unto others...".

Am I the only one who notices that your family bond has clouded your vision?This is exactly like the Germany/Greece debacle.

You don't sell a house because of a small capital loss but intend to throw some more money after a no-return property improvement? You intend to make payments without a shareholding? Once the six months of payments are over and the family member has no job he will owe the bank and you an even larger amount and how does that improve the situation?

This is why the markets are stuffed because every person thinks they are special and they deserve special treatment. By paying your family member's mortgage you are withholding a property from the market and keeping the property prices higher than they should be and you, as a prudent individual with savings in the bank which are the basis of this mortgage, are paying off the return of your own deposit. You are creating your own Ponzi scheme named Medved Family Trust Investments.

If you were trying to truly assist you would tell your family member to sell the house, lend them the shortfall to cover the capital loss and make them pay you back the family loan at RBA rate plus 1% and if necessary payout from disability/death insurance.

This post has been edited by sydney3000: 05 February 2012 - 01:59 AM

[zaph]

sydney3000, on 05 February 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Am I the only one who notices that your family bond has clouded your vision?This is exactly like the Germany/Greece debacle.

You don't sell a house because of a small capital loss but intend to throw some more money after a no-return property improvement? You intend to make payments without a shareholding? Once the six months of payments are over and the family member has no job he will owe the bank and you an even larger amount and how does that improve the situation?

This is why the markets are stuffed because every person thinks they are special and they deserve special treatment. By paying your family member's mortgage you are withholding a property from the market and keeping the property prices higher than they should be and you, as a prudent individual with savings in the bank which are the basis of this mortgage, are paying off the return of your own deposit. You are creating your own Ponzi scheme named Medved Family Trust Investments.

If you were trying to truly assist you would tell your family member to sell the house, lend them the shortfall to cover the capital loss and make them pay you back the family loan at RBA rate plus 1% and if necessary payout from disability/death insurance.

i wrote a long response, but my cat typed on the keyboard and deleted it.

so the short version. this is family. family do all sorts of things.

[Mr Medved]

sydney3000, on 05 February 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Am I the only one who notices that your family bond has clouded your vision?This is exactly like the Germany/Greece debacle.

Bullsh*t. Nothing like it. Germany/Greece is more like me supporting APS in Canberra or some specufestor up on the Gold Coast who have little to almost no relationship.

The person who I am assisting has helped me enormously in my life. You don't cut them high and dry when they need help, especially when they've only been unemployed for a short period. And you forgot one thing. They need somewhere to live. As I said there's negligible difference between the mortgage and renting. It is a family home that provides shelter, not an IP. If the situation hasn't change in six months time then we'd discuss other options... now is a bit premature.

And I don't charge interest if I lend to family and friends... have you got children S3k?

[sydney3000]

The reason the world is going to hell in a hand-basket is the fact that people who always take the most optimistic viewpoint are allowed to make decisions instead of people who take the most pessimistic viewpoint.

Most optimistic viewpoint:

Your family member wins the lotto next weekend. The mortgage is paid off the Monday after. The property doubles in value by the next morning.

Most pessimistic viewpoint:

Your family member can't find a job. You lend them money for six months. The money owed to the bank shrinks. The money owed to you expands. In the meantime the unemployment rate has risen by 2%. Property prices have halved. The house gets repossessed. The bank takes the first and only bid. The small capital loss has increased ten-fold. Your family member is left with no house, half a "mortgage" in debt and money owed to you.

Pick your poison.

This post has been edited by sydney3000: 05 February 2012 - 06:27 AM

[staringclown]

sydney3000, on 05 February 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Am I the only one who notices that your family bond has clouded your vision?This is exactly like the Germany/Greece debacle.

You don't sell a house because of a small capital loss but intend to throw some more money after a no-return property improvement? You intend to make payments without a shareholding? Once the six months of payments are over and the family member has no job he will owe the bank and you an even larger amount and how does that improve the situation?

This is why the markets are stuffed because every person thinks they are special and they deserve special treatment. By paying your family member's mortgage you are withholding a property from the market and keeping the property prices higher than they should be and you, as a prudent individual with savings in the bank which are the basis of this mortgage, are paying off the return of your own deposit. You are creating your own Ponzi scheme named Medved Family Trust Investments.

If you were trying to truly assist you would tell your family member to sell the house, lend them the shortfall to cover the capital loss and make them pay you back the family loan at RBA rate plus 1% and if necessary payout from disability/death insurance.

To not pay back a family member who has generous enough to provide you with a loan would be more akin to embezzling than default. If you can't trust and rely on your own family you're really up against it. You can't often find many others to trust. No doubt I would lend the money and get a loan if needed. Good on you Mr M.

[Mr Medved]

sydney3000, on 05 February 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Pick your poison.

To be honest I wouldn't be concerned about lending money and not getting it back, so that's not an issue. I have been burnt in the past but that doesn't mean all family members get blacklisted. Six months contributing to repayments would hurt my savings rate but would not be a fatal financial blow... being a DINKS household for now allows that flexibility.

If in the case of continued unemployment, negative equity and foreclosure it would lead to bankruptcy (whether small or large amount 'owed' to the bank). The house is the only asset that would be recoverable by the bank and there'd be no income to garnish, so bankruptcy wouldn't be in the best interest of the bank. The greater concern in such a scenario is the emotional impact and dealing with the practicalities of finding a new home. Hopefully it won't get to that stage but if it does then we will deal with it.

[Solomon]

Mr Medved, on 05 February 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

To be honest I wouldn't be concerned about lending money and not getting it back, so that's not an issue. I have been burnt in the past but that doesn't mean all family members get blacklisted. Six months contributing to repayments would hurt my savings rate but would not be a fatal financial blow... being a DINKS household for now allows that flexibility.

If in the case of continued unemployment, negative equity and foreclosure it would lead to bankruptcy (whether small or large amount 'owed' to the bank). The house is the only asset that would be recoverable by the bank and there'd be no income to garnish, so bankruptcy wouldn't be in the best interest of the bank. The greater concern in such a scenario is the emotional impact and dealing with the practicalities of finding a new home. Hopefully it won't get to that stage but if it does then we will deal with it.

Mr Med,
S3k is generalising a philosophical ideology.
Whilst he is possibly correct in his analogy, it is probably not helpful when the intimacy of family is involved.
I am helping my own son with car payments and insurance, while he finds work. (Has a promising prospect on the horizon)
I also assist with a little money for food for his family.
He needs the ute for work (I've mentioned before he's a tradie), so there is no option of selling, but we have begun a fairly serious discussion about budgets and such.
I completely understand your scenario, and I said before, I commend your compassionate response.

I want us all to see, something of the dilemma politicians have in the Greece/Germany scenario that S3k presents. They know that human beings are involved here, and it is not so cut and dried, as if we were talking about machines. These are real flesh and blood people.
Yes, we can come on this forum and act belligerently that governments should do this or that, but at the end of the day, we have to put ourselves in the same situation and see what our response would be.
Perhaps Med's family situation, tells us something about our own attitude given the situation strikes right in our back yard.
I want to thank Med for being honest and open enough to reveal his situation. This is an anonymous forum. He doesn't have to tell you what he's doing. I also want to thank S3k, for giving us some perspective on the case in point.
Perhaps our debate about Greece might now be a little more informed from a human consideration.

[zaph]

Solomon, on 06 February 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

Mr Med,
S3k is generalising a philosophical ideology.
Whilst he is possibly correct in his analogy, it is probably not helpful when the intimacy of family is involved.
I am helping my own son with car payments and insurance, while he finds work. (Has a promising prospect on the horizon)
I also assist with a little money for food for his family.
He needs the ute for work (I've mentioned before he's a tradie), so there is no option of selling, but we have begun a fairly serious discussion about budgets and such.
I completely understand your scenario, and I said before, I commend your compassionate response.

I want us all to see, something of the dilemma politicians have in the Greece/Germany scenario that S3k presents. They know that human beings are involved here, and it is not so cut and dried, as if we were talking about machines. These are real flesh and blood people.
Yes, we can come on this forum and act belligerently that governments should do this or that, but at the end of the day, we have to put ourselves in the same situation and see what our response would be.
Perhaps Med's family situation, tells us something about our own attitude given the situation strikes right in our back yard.
I want to thank Med for being honest and open enough to reveal his situation. This is an anonymous forum. He doesn't have to tell you what he's doing. I also want to thank S3k, for giving us some perspective on the case in point.
Perhaps our debate about Greece might now be a little more informed from a human consideration.

but greece is not med's sensible relative who has hit temporary hard times, that you would help out. greece is the spend thrift relative who has racked up masses of consumer debt, paying one credit card off with the other and has finally had the tap turned off. not a relative i would support.